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View Full Version : Best anti-gel with ULSD


Fueling Around
11-27-2007, 11:14 PM
What results are you seeing with various anti-gel additives and Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD)?

I tried a number of products last year with dismal results. I ended up running about 25/75 fuel last year (that's 25% #2) to prevent gel.

Well, today I had to put on #1 at a breath stopping $3.979 per gallon to keep the old slug running in the (mild) sub zero temps. This not a good trend....

Duluth Diesel
11-28-2007, 01:29 PM
I run this: http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/acf.aspx?zo=1475014
(http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/acf.aspx?zo=1475014)
Cherry Performance on here is our resident AMSOIL guy. Nate can assist you if you're interested. I have been very pleased with this newly reformulated anti-gel and deicer. It works with ULSD and Biodiesel up to B20.

-Chuck

Cummins Freak
11-28-2007, 03:28 PM
Ijust run howes and I run just a little bit of that wiht strait #2 all the way to about -20

CherryPerformance
11-28-2007, 05:24 PM
All I run in my truck generally is #2 and what Duluth Diesel recommended.

Has worked for me so far.

Mopar1973Man
11-29-2007, 12:28 PM
Directed at Duluth Diesel...

(No comment!) :hi: :lol5:

MnTom
11-29-2007, 05:28 PM
Both my daughter and I run the same thing that Duluth Diesel and CherryPerformance run and we have had zero issues with fuel gelling.

Bill v-o
11-30-2007, 12:17 AM
As an amsoil dealer myself I run this product also with good results but the diesel concentrate has let me down in the way of lost fuel mileage.

gusman98
12-04-2007, 11:59 AM
I am currently running power service in the white bottle. It has a cetane boost and an antigel. Haven't had any problems yet. Startin' to get pretty cold here at night too.

MnTom
12-04-2007, 05:25 PM
Welcome Gusman!!!! Glad to have you here!! Jump right in and enjoy!
Tom

gusman98
12-04-2007, 09:27 PM
Thanks Tom! Glad to be here :cheers2:

Duluth Diesel
12-04-2007, 10:11 PM
Welcome gusman98!:punk:

What out for that Tom :wheelchair: guy, he's tricky :buttkick:

-Chuck:devil2:

DieselDood
12-05-2007, 07:21 AM
Welcome!

You see I almost hate to admit this but here's what I've been doing....
When I can afford it, White bottle and 2 stroke.
Otherwise I fill up at Holiday. The price is the cheapist in my area and they guarintee it won't gel to the temps listed.

If it does.....well then I'll have to "get" a repair bill and submit it to them to get my money back.

Fueling Around
12-06-2007, 11:58 PM
I have to watch "blended" fuel. The former Connoco (now Holiday) had lots of gel problems with their blended fuel last winter.

My brother still uses Penray products in his diesel stable. He lives in Idaho and I cannot find it anywhere around here.

I play it safe and use a pretty healthy mix of #1 fuel until I get comfortable. Luckily, #1 dropped from $3.979 per to $3.769 per and #2 dropped a dime, too.

We didn't (couldn't) change over to winter diesel soon enough at work and have lots of stubborn buses in the lot with straight #2. I got a couple cases of CRC Therapy to try and free up the fuel. We'll see how well it works in the next couple days as the temps are expected to drop near -20°F. I'm really trying to avoid the PS 911 (red bottle) due to the alcohol it contains.

Keep the info flowing (and your fuel)....

Johntf
12-11-2007, 10:17 AM
The last couple yrs I had close access to straight #2 , then used PS white bottle , one night it got to lower than -20*F & I forgot to plug in , to start in morning I would cycle grid heaters twice without turning over starter , then start with a little throttle and let warm up for a couple min.
I got some to the Cold Flow from Chuck , went for it [ behind seat ] it was almost solid at temps requiring it , so need to be sure that you keep it warm to use .
I changed my motor oil to Amsoil about 4 wks ago , I was happy to see that my oil pressure is higher , cold & operating temp , with stock gauge its hard to say but maybe 3-5 lbs .

Duluth Diesel
12-11-2007, 10:27 AM
The last couple yrs I had close access to straight #2 , then used PS white bottle , one night it got to lower than -20*F & I forgot to plug in , to start in morning I would cycle grid heaters twice without turning over starter , then start with a little throttle and let warm up for a couple min.
I got some to the Cold Flow from Chuck , went for it [ behind seat ] it was almost solid at temps requiring it , so need to be sure that you keep it warm to use .
I changed my motor oil to Amsoil about 4 wks ago , I was happy to see that my oil pressure is higher , cold & operating temp , with stock gauge its hard to say but maybe 3-5 lbs .

BTW John, that thickening of the anti-gel copolymer when cold in the bottle is now fixed with the revised AMSOIL ACF. It doesn't thicken up anymore and lowers the gel point even better.

-Chuck

Bill v-o
12-11-2007, 11:44 AM
BTW John, that thickening of the anti-gel copolymer when cold in the bottle is now fixed with the revised AMSOIL ACF. It doesn't thicken up anymore and lowers the gel point even better.

-Chuck

The latest amsoil Mag stated that thickening of the new acf is still normal.

Duluth Diesel
12-11-2007, 01:23 PM
The latest amsoil Mag stated that thickening of the new acf is still normal.

Thickening, but not gelling up completely. I'll have to get some of the new ACF and let it freeze and find out for myself. I have some of the old DFF here, so I'll do a comparison next cold snap to -20.

-Chuck

Johntf
12-11-2007, 02:59 PM
What I've got is from last yr .

CherryPerformance
12-11-2007, 06:59 PM
It's the old stuff then lol.

I love the PS stuff.....I still use it from time to time when I find myself full of fuel and no Amsoil....

Fueling Around
12-11-2007, 11:22 PM
BTW John, that thickening of the anti-gel copolymer when cold in the bottle is now fixed with the revised AMSOIL ACF. It doesn't thicken up anymore and lowers the gel point even better.

-ChuckFor those that know, an anti-gell that gells in cold weather means it is concentrated and will actually protect at 1/300 and lower ratios. Easy to pour means it is thinned with #1 and usually not as concentrated as the large print label. Reading the fine print tells you a very high blend ratio. Example, current Power Service label says 1 quart per 35 gallons not the 100 gallons in large print.

DieselPower and Penray are 2 additives I used that slushed in the bottle. I fixed that by adding a bottle to 1/2 gallon of #1 mixed in an old Power Service or Howes jug. Obviously, you have to calculate a new add ratio.

ULSD & bio really changed the old rules.

The problem we find at work is once a fuel gells (clouds) it stays that way long after temps rise.

Duluth Diesel
12-12-2007, 12:13 PM
Wax forms plate like structures (flat) and AMSOIL Cold Flow breaks those up more like strings so fuel can flow through. It modifies the wax crystals to allow the fuel to pass through filters, and prevent premature plugging due to gel. The name of the active ingredient is proprietary. It also works well with biodiesel. Biodiesel has horrible cold temperature properties in general, and the use of a biodiesel-compatible product will help lower the point at which the fuel clouds, or begins to gel. Biodiesel or B100 does not contain paraffin since it is not petroleum based. When B100 gets cold crystals do appear and they act like wax in that they stick together and are large enough to plug filters. These crystals form sooner or at higher temperatures and are larger in size in B100 than in regular diesel fuel. Biodiesel is defined as mono-alkyl esters of long chain fatty acids derived from vegetable oils or animal fats which conform to ASTM D6751 specifications for use in diesel engines. The saturated compounds in the Biodiesel form the crystals that plug filters. When they form they are larger than diesel wax crystals. Most anti-gels, including AMSOIL's, work best on biodiesel fuels B20 and less.

The key to messing with paraffin wax gel is to disrupt it from agglomerating together into a “glob” that is big enough to plug a filter and or fuel line. A copolymer chemical with molecular chains similar in size and distribution to paraffin co-crystalize with the wax and disrupt the crystal formation.

There is speculation that solvents are being used (similar to those found in paint thinners), but that's not true. The solvent (napthalene, benzene, etc) that are commonly found on MSDS sheets (because they are hazardous) are just the carriers for the active ingredients. They don't act on the paraffin adequately alone.

As diesel fuel cools you will notice a white haze or cloud in the fuel. This usually happens around +10 degrees F. but can happen at higher or lower temperatures depending on fuel characteristics. The white cloud or haze is caused by wax crystals precipitating (coming out of solution) out of the fuel and becomes visible. When fuel warms above the Cloud Point of the fuel the white appearance will disappear as wax crystals dissolve back into the fuel. The use of an antigel usually does not change the Cloud Point of a fuel and if it does it is usually only by a few degrees. There are however some Cloud Point depressants that can significantly reduce the Cloud Point of a fuel. Cloud Point depressants will adversely affect antigels or Pour Point Depressants. Antigels typically affect the CFPP and Pour Points of a fuel. Antigels work on the wax crystals in the fuel. As the wax crystals form or come out of solution the antigel will modify wax crystals so they are smaller, will not stick together and will flow in much lower temperatures. When it comes to solvents there is a lot of misinformation on the internet. There are many postings stating that all additives are nothing but solvents and the various solvents are usually named. These are usually the type of solvents in paint. The people posting up these arguements are not chemists and don't entirely know what they are talking about. A solvent is defined as a liquid that dissolves or can dissolve. Water is used in many industries as a solvent, Biodiesel, especially B100, is considered as a solvent since it cleans sediments, water, gums and varnish from a fuel system. Solvent is a very broad term and many house hold chemicals are solvents. AMSOIL is not selling paint thinners or house cleaners. Our products contain real detergents, Cetane Boost, lubricity improvers, stability packages, and antigels. Just don't get caught up on the word solvent so much. Many products use those chemicals in their makeup. MSDS sheets are not an ingredient list, they just list a few of the required chemicals that are known to be toxic. Diesel fuel has an MSDS, but the diesel fuel MSDS does not tell you nearly everything about the fuel.

Johntf
12-14-2007, 06:23 PM
Those last few were good , just have to give us that secret / proprietary info , or I could just keep buy from you .

Mopar1973Man
12-14-2007, 07:24 PM
Well to put 2 cents in here...

I've got everything for testing gel points of fuel and additives... But...

I'm short the freezer... I've got 3 freezers and the best I can get is about 8*F above zero... So I'm trying to remember to pick up some dry ice for doing the test... But I keep forgetting the cooler when I head to McCall, ID... DUH!

I'm going to try and get this done before winter weather is gone...:rolleyes:

Duluth Diesel
12-15-2007, 08:14 AM
And you're supposed to call me before you do the test. I need to send you some stuff to test with, remember?

-Chuck

Mopar1973Man
12-15-2007, 10:16 AM
Yeah I know... I'm trying to get a way to cool the fuel down below 0*F for sure.. None of my freezer will do it. And my weather here is right at 20-30*F at the house... But the lowet I seen on the highway is about 9*F at Tamarack Mill outside New Meadows, ID.

I want to test summer and winter fuels both and test with and without 2 cycle oil in it...

But the only thing I found that will get really cold is DRY ICE. (http://www.howstuffworks.com/question264.htm)

I got to remember to grab my ice chest (cooler) and buy some when I'm up at McCall, ID shopping for the week...:willy-nilly:

At this point I would call you Chuck and get your samples...:innocent:

But it should allow me to cool diesl fuels enough to perform the testing and see what happens here... I will make darn sure to get pics of the fuels as it goes along...

Fueling Around
12-16-2007, 01:07 AM
Pity you live in a bananna belt. Dropping below zero again tonight around here.

DieselDood
12-16-2007, 12:32 PM
Nice....it's 22* here now....

It's truely amaizing how MN weather can swing so much from day to day....let alone season to season!

crazieabe
12-23-2007, 01:42 AM
for what it is worth, I have tried about every additive out there. In my experience, the mileage benefit claims just don't hold up. I keep track of my mileage to the tenth and fuel to the hundredth of a gallon. I have never seen a mileage increase that justified the cost of a fuel additive. Also, my truck is parked outside all the time, gets plugged in about half the time, and have never had my truck not start or gell up. I buy my fuel from the same station whenever possible. The additives seem like a good idea, but I am just not sold. In my experience at work, we have had alot of trucks come in frozen. Change the filters, let em sit in the warm shop about a half an hour, and ka pow, there running again. No additives. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they formulate the fuel at the refinery? How can we do a better job at the pump with a bottle of ??? and expect better results? just my two cents here...

Duluth Diesel
12-23-2007, 08:19 AM
for what it is worth, I have tried about every additive out there. In my experience, the mileage benefit claims just don't hold up. I keep track of my mileage to the tenth and fuel to the hundredth of a gallon. I have never seen a mileage increase that justified the cost of a fuel additive. Also, my truck is parked outside all the time, gets plugged in about half the time, and have never had my truck not start or gell up. I buy my fuel from the same station whenever possible. The additives seem like a good idea, but I am just not sold. In my experience at work, we have had alot of trucks come in frozen. Change the filters, let em sit in the warm shop about a half an hour, and ka pow, there running again. No additives. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they formulate the fuel at the refinery? How can we do a better job at the pump with a bottle of ??? and expect better results? just my two cents here...

Actually, they don't mix your fuel at the refinery. They refine the fuel at the refinery. Diesel fuel additives (like anti-gel, cetane, and lubricity additives) are mixed into each single load of fuel as it goes onto each individual tanker truck. What this comes down to is that often the mixing goes wrong since just in Minnesota we're probably seeing thousands of loads of fuel mixed and loaded per day. Things do go wrong, and often those loads go out anyway. Adding your own additives is one way to make sure you are getting a decent load of fuel, even if someone, or something, malfunctions.

The only times I've been stranded with gelled fuel is when I didn't treat it.
-Chuck

Johntf
12-23-2007, 10:53 AM
I agree with Chuck , there are a lot of opportunity / reasons for what we get at the pump , the money made or not [ its common that the franchise owner has to sell for less than he pays ] to help make a buck may leave out whatever additive / or skimp .
Using additives for me is much like having a fuel filter [ there is not spouse to be anything in the fuel - but ] , I do not think much of some of the claims [ millage ect ] but I look at the min. requirements , lube , cetane , a little extra is better than not enough .
This may be a good spot to rant a little , gas pump have to label octane , but they do not have to label cetane .

CherryPerformance
12-26-2007, 01:37 PM
The additivetives are in the tanker, before they show up at the plant to load up with fuel. The fuel theoretically should be very well mixed in with the additive just from the loading process, on top of driving across town to the local fuel station, sloshing and jostling around in the trailer.

MnTom
12-26-2007, 07:52 PM
But that is IF the additives were put in like they should be..............

MNRAM
12-26-2007, 08:18 PM
The additivetives are in the tanker, before they show up at the plant to load up with fuel. The fuel theoretically should be very well mixed in with the additive just from the loading process, on top of driving across town to the local fuel station, sloshing and jostling around in the trailer.



That's true. When I used to drive transport we would load a gallon or two of cetane into what ever compartment we were going to load into. It was that or we would load so many gallons of #2 and so many gallons of #1 into a compartment.
I know when I would load gas product that whatever company you were pulling off of (Shell, Amoco,Phillip 66) had their own additive mix that was added from under the rack as you were loading the gas. I always knew the additive pumps were working because I could hear the clicking sound they made. They were little piston pumps loading out of a 55 gal barrel of additive.

Al

CherryPerformance
12-27-2007, 07:49 PM
Yes Tom.....the "assuming" they are phenomenon.